Episode 59: Sherrinford

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Episode 59: Sherrinford

Postby Caroline » January 17th, 2017, 6:15 am

Download or stream now.

First reactions from watching Sherlock series 4, episode 3: The Final Problem.
Caroline, aka avawatson/avawtsn. Here for the johnlock. <3

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Re: Episode 59: Sherrinford

Postby ParkerLuce » January 18th, 2017, 1:19 am

This was a great podcast episode. You all echoed many of the things I've been thinking. It's especially clear to me that casual fans see the show very differently.

In particular, the continuity of the storyline and motivation for the characters just aren't something casual fans I know puzzle over. I'm still stuck on how certain things resolved and why characters made the choices they did.

I don't recall who pointed out that in SM and MG's other show, Dr Who, death has no consequences and many decisions don't either. This is so on point. And that's one of my huge frustrations with the writing in Dr Who. The deaths aren't meaningful because everyone comes back again and again. The last companion isn't even a source of grief for the Doctor, as they have erased her from his memories.

I feel like Sherlock was always grounded in actual choices and decisions and consequences and this season blew that all out of the water. It's disappointing. Either it matters or it doesn't. The stakes aren't high if it's all waved away.

Yet there was a lot that I absolutely loved. In the season and in the episode. I loved Jim's return, that was super fun. (Even if the details surrounding it make no sense to me). I loved Sherlock and John and Mycroft working together, even if it was in this creepy Saw concept. I love every time Mr and Mrs Holmes are onscreen. I loved the horror movie sequence and Mycroft's soft core porn movie (or whatever it was). I loved the umbrella/sword/pistol! And Mycroft sitting in the chair like a client. And Mrs Hudson throwing shade at him. I loved that Sherlock and John raise Rosie (the baby whose purpose in the show I still don't understand).

Anyway, those are my thoughts on day two.

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Re: Episode 59: Sherrinford

Postby buffer-overrun » January 18th, 2017, 4:28 pm

The podcast was exactly what I needed to hear. I made sure to watch TFP while it was livestreaming so I wouldn't have to wait to go on Tumblr and listen to TPP.

I'm not sure this is the right place to do this, but I have Thoughts, and wanted to share them:

After series 3, I was totally convinced that Sherlock was in love with John (as opposed to loving him like a brother), and for me the beat down scene in The Lying Detective showed that Sherlock would sacrifice everything for John, in a totally unhealthy and self destructive way.

Last week, I read some discussion about whether John beats up Sherlock because he thinks he can, and the crux of the argument boiled down to whether John felt justified in punishing Sherlock. But for me, that wasn’t the issue. In the manner of abusive relationships, John hurt Sherlock because he could, even if he felt guilty about it later. (I never had my heart set on canon Johnlock, but the beat-down scene made me start actively hoping it wouldn't happen.)

And this was left totally unresolved. Are we supposed to believe that this simmering, apparently unrequited crush, just keeps going? The next time John is furious with himself, is he going to beat Sherlock up again?

Also, Sherlock’s drug use. In both His Last Vow and The Lying Detective, the drug uses is “for a case”. But I think that it’s informative that this is his best plan for self-destructive behavior. It is also clearly a way to avoid his feelings, even if there is some ambiguity about the exact nature of those feelings.

I didn’t see any indication that there was any improvement in the way Sherlock was dealing with drugs, so it is all too easy to see the dynamic of His Last Vow and The Lying Detective (where Sherlock ruins himself for and about John and John is furious) playing out again and again.

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Re: Episode 59: Sherrinford

Postby Alessnox » January 19th, 2017, 2:30 am

I found this entire season completely problematic. Mary's complete forgiveness and deification. John's misguided abuse, both physically as he puts Sherlock in the hospital, and mentally, as he knew that Sherlock was on drugs, and would not even touch him. AND the needless introduction of a sister whose powers are indistinguishable from magic which makes the show totally not compliant with the logical spirit of Sherlock Holmes. All of this drove me around the bend.

But the thing that angered me most is the belief that it was in response to Johnlockers. I felt that mentioning that Sherlock texts Irene, and having Sherlock say "I love you" to Molly, as well as John's totally unbelievable excessive grief over Mary, who he was actively cheating on, was just too weird for words. It sounded to me like a giant "No Homo!" of epic proportions. The fact that the only actively gay characters are a drunk (Harry Watson), a psycho (Eurus probably slept with a woman), A prostitute (Irene Adler says she's gay but is turned by her love of Sherlock), and the mythic married ones tells me that our faith in Moffat and Gatiss to forward the gay agenda was most certainly misplaced.

Despite all this, they had some cool visuals, and interesting moments. I thought that I would never want to see or hear of season 4 ever again, but then I wrote two Eurus Holmes fics. So i think that we'll need to get a little distance before we make a final decision on this chapter.

I wrote an epic rant on Wordpress about the anti gayness of it it if you want to read it. (https://rozzychan.wordpress.com/2017/01 ... sentation/)
In the end, I was a bit disappointed, but mostly because my expectations were too high. I think that I'll stick with the fandom for now, and take or leave any attempts for another official episode. My fandomness has dropped a notch, and this years Watson was certainly "Not the John Watson" I know.

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Re: Episode 59: Sherrinford

Postby SarahTheCoat » February 13th, 2017, 8:59 pm

I was also really disappointed by this episode. (and S4 in general) I am glad I didn't preorder the dvd, since I would never choose to watch any of these episodes again, none of them were what I would consider enjoyable even the first time through. S3 was at least fun to watch the first time, even though the stories all fell apart when you looked at them hard. These stories never held together enough to have something to fall apart, they just made no sense, especially TFP. All I could keep thinking of was "it doesn't make sense because it's not real" (ok so why even make the episode, when there could have been a real story?)
As was said above, Euros was out of nowhere, made no sense, it didn't feel at all like a sherlock holmes story. Where even were the "domestic moments" with Sherlock and John that we come to these stories for? Nothing made any sense. So many things had been set up to be big and meaningful and then there was no resolution or payoff or "consequences" at all, it was more like they wanted to see how many unresolved strings they could leave hanging. (and johnlock is only one small one among many many many) It felt like rug pulls just for the sake of rug pulls, not to be actually meaningful, not to look at what went before in a new more meaningful way, just to erase whatever meaning we thought they had. How is that fixing what other adaptations have gotten wrong? Maybe everything they have ever said about the show is actually the opposite of what they meant? who even knows.
I'm not into horror, so have never seen the saw movie or the ring or any of the ones this might have been quoting from, but knowing that it did, begs the question why? why make a lousy knockoff of other movies and package it as if it was an episode of Sherlock? I actually almost didn't finish watching, it was so disturbing and nasty. I got out my knitting so I wouldn't have to look at the screen the whole time, yuk.
The good man/great man line that Lestrade had at the end felt like another throwaway, completely unsatisfying. The epilogue with mary voiceover was excruciating. I am so beyond disinterested in her, my greatest fear now is that they might bring her back for a "proper resolution" except they don't seem to be doing proper resolutions any more, so I guess I don't have to worry. Thankfully a fan made an edit of the video of the epilogue scene with just the music, that is like the only piece of video from the entire episode /series that I'm even interested in watching. There are a few screencaps that are worth saving, little Sherlock and the hug... not much else.
So, going forward, I am here for the fandom. The meta writers and subtext readers are my heros, the fanfic writers and the artists, the people who actually spend time thinking about the characters and who they are (which MATTERS, ahem).
One question raised during the podcast was, would there be an audience for series after series of just episodes like A Study in Pink, etc, cases with little or no Moriarty, etc. and I would say yes, absolutely. The whole Granada series is nearly moriarty-free, he's really only in the one story that he appears in in the books, and it works just fine. I think the casual audience for that would have been even bigger. The casual fans I talk to have no idea what to make of S4 if they even watched it at all. Many of them tuned out after S3 which didn't make a lot of sense either. I would have if not for fandom.
So, sorry if this sounds like an angry sad rant, but.... that was the series I got dealt. I hope I live long enough for a different set of writers to do a more enjoyable modernisation... (I do watch and like Elementary)

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